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Ryan Healy is a recent college graduate. He is a founder of 
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Warning: This is a brief, random rambling that somehow made its way onto the page as I was writing a post about “casual pitches.” Stay tuned for that post tomorrow morning.
What do you do? It’s the infamous question that is just bound to come out during the first five minutes of meeting someone for the first time. It’s funny, because admittedly so or not, people all too often judge others, especially men, based on their profession.
Maybe I’m being naïve by saying this, but I believe that guys really don’t care what a woman does for work. I react the same way whether a woman tells me she is a teacher, a yoga instructor, a lawyer or an aspiring house mom. As long as we get along and we can have some type of intellectually stimulating conversation, a woman’s choice of career does not effect how I converse with her.
As I have written about before, women really do care what a guy does for a living. When I used to tell girls at the bar that I worked as a consultant for a Fortune 500 company they seemed satisfied. Of course, they weren’t blown away, but nobody stopped talking to me because of it. However, when I tell women that I run a website, or that I am starting a company, their eyes often perk up and I can sense a change in tone.
On the other hand, I suspect that women judge other women by their occupations, just like men judge other men. But what do I know? I’m a guy. Ladies, what do you think?
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Well, yes, we definitely care what you do. That’s for sure. But I’m not sure I’ve met any guys who don’t care, unless they didn’t care about their careers either (see bartenders).
I think what we choose to do, especially early in life, makes up a great deal of who we are. It’s not just that we spend at least 40, even 50 or 60 hours a week doing this, but it’s whether or not we’re going to take it home with us. I know from experience that guys in start-up businesses and entrepreneurs are not going to have a lot of time to put into a relationship, and even if they try, they’re going to spend a lot of their time working after hours, at the office or at home. It’s all-consuming. At the same time, I’m attracted to that personality - self-starter, motivated, business-savvy, and possibly making bank in the next few years. (My mama always said catch ‘em on the way up.)
That gets down to the real deal for women, at least me: is this guy going to make enough to support a family? I hate to admit that I actually think like this on some level, but I watched my mom be the lone bread winner and it didn’t look fun. It was stressful for her. I’m all about women being the bread winners (I’ve been the highest paid in most of my relationships), but the keyword in that sentence is LONE. There’s too much pressure to be superwoman. Call me a backlash of my feminist fore-mothers, but I want to at least have the option of being a stay-at-home mom for a few years. It’s just nice to have the perogative.
For me, it’s not about tons of money; it’s about comfort. It might be OK to struggle when you’re starting out, but I can tell you it’s no fun 20 years later.
And no guy wants a boring leach of a partner in life, unless she’s Maxim material, and I have to assume that gets old at some point, which is why they trade them in every 7-10 years. So maybe that’s why I’ve never met a guy who doesn’t care what I do… I am NOT Maxim material. I can tell you I got a much better response out of New Media Editor than I get out of Market Research Analyst. Both are a mouthful though, and maybe in the end I would be better off with First Grade Teacher.
Ryan, this post had me laughing out loud. I’ll also chime in with my experience as a man. When I was at a bar once, I jokingly told people I met that I was unemployed when I was really just in between jobs. It was amazing to see women’s interest suddenly change to my other friends around me who were in banking and consulting.
Holly,
I don’t want to sound like I do not care what a woman does, because if I’m interested in the woman, I will be interested in talking about her career, no matter what it is. The issue is, I am not worried if a woman is going to make a ton of money or if she is just doing something she enjoys.
Like you say, the real deal for women, even after the feminist movement and equal employment opportunities etc., is “is this guy going to make enough to support a family?” And I believe that is the big difference. I would bet most guys don’t even have a womans profession in their top 10 list of things to look for in a woman. But women are very conscious.
A boring leach of a partner won’t cut it either, because like I said, intellectually stimulating conversations are extremely important. I don’t think you need a doctor or lawyer to have a conversation like this, you just need a smart, caring person.
I’m not judging women or men on this whole issue, I just think its a fact that women still place more importance on a man’s career then men do on a woman’s. And that’s fine with me. It’s still really interesting though.
Presh,
Glad I could make you laugh. It’s funny because I have friends who own a business but were technically unemployed before actually launching the business. As an experiment they would tell women they had no jobs and weren’t looking. If the girl blew them off, they wouldn’t even try to get to know her. but if they still wanted to talk, then they knew they had found a potentially cool girl.
Thanks for the comments.
-Ryan
I agree with Holly that the man is still looked at as the main provider for the family, but I don’t judge a guy on what type of job he has in his early twenties. Just like many women, guys aren’t always sure exactly what they want to do right out of college and as long as they have (or are working on) a good education then they will be able to get a job that supports a family. I am totally okay with being the breadwinner in my relationship at the beginning, however when I’m ready to have a family I want to know that I could have the option to stay at home (either months or years) if I wanted to.
Regarding women judging other women - there are really three different kinds of women: those who want to have professional careers, those who want to be stay-at-home moms, and those who wish they could be stay-at-home moms but have to work to pay the bills. The latter two especially are a direct result of what the husband does as a career, and therefore, I have found that women are often judged by what there husbands do. Sorry, Ryan, to put the extra pressure on you as a guy!
As a guy, I can’t help but chime in with my two cents.
What you do and where you do it can be incredibly important to some but not as much with others. I typically don’t ask the “job” question when I first meet someone but I’m sure it finds its way into the conversation at some point. However, the topic of money came up when I was out with a lawyer a few weeks ago and I was a little surpised at how important what someone makes was to her. She has a certain lifestyle and that’s what was most important to her. That’s cool for her, but that let me know she’s not “the one” for me.
I really like it when the girl I am talking to shows a genuine interest in what she does and conveys that to me. I’ve had a girl, who is a research assistant at a geology laboratory, truly make me stand in awe over what she does!
A man’s job is a bigger part of his personality than a woman.
A man IS his job. For example, I’m a “Computer Programmer”. That’s who I am. Most parts of my like reflect this, from the movies and books I read (Scit-Fi, Horror), to the hobbies I have (Electronics, robotics), to the magazines I read (Wired and Technology Review).
Women identify with other things besides their job. My wife is a consultant, but she identifies more with being a mother, a history buff, and a wife (notice where I am on this list.. but I don’t mind).
So I think that people pick up on this when they meet somone new. Women know that men’s identities are tied up in their job, so that’s what they ask about. Men know that women don’t identify strongly with their jobs, so they ask about something else.
“A man IS his job. For example, I’m a “Computer Programmer”. That’s who I am.”
I’ve found this to be true mostly during the younger years. I think it stems from all those school years: “I’m a sixth grader” or “I’m a sophomore at NYU”. Eventually we define ourselves by our jobs, but I think its only for lack of any better definition: “I’m a computer programmer.”
After marriage and/or kids, I think men tend to redefine themselves. At least I did. Or maybe we just realize that we don’t have ourselves quite as all-figured-out as we’d thought.
To me, career and job title are only part of the puzzle. What I really care about it whether or not the person is passionate about what they do. There’s nothing worse than hearing, “I’m in XYZ but that’s not really want I want to be doing with my life.” When I hear that I think, “What are you doing to get where you want to be.” Uusually the answer is nothing. That of course ties back to more unattractive issues in their life.
Been reading this great blog for a while, first time posting.
My profession (internet marketing research and development) is actually attached to an anecdote - I have a MySpace.com shirt that elicits a sardonic chuckle in conversation, but the tone changes after they sarcastically say “Nice shirt” and I respond “Yeah, they’re one of my client contacts. They’re nice people.” There is a sudden shift in body language. The commenter starts to align their conversation and gestures to me and their eyebrows are raised. And only then do they ask, with sincerity, “Oh, what do you do?”
I suppose that it is fascinating to be working with an internet entity that is so ubiquitous, and affords a good opportunity to network, albeit informally. My main point is, it is surprising even to me when I am pegged as being that thing that I do, and it’s actually an accurate reflection of who I am - I become more than some guy with a silly t-shirt. And I can feel myself being judged: How much more is he than a guy with a t-shirt?
On the topic of it women judge other women based on their occupation I believe that in today’s world a women’s career really is a measure of who she is, and what she represents.
Back in the day (think ‘Leave It To Beaver’) a women’s social status was, more or less, based upon her husbands career choice. A women’s place was seen as being in the home; cooking, cleaning, raising the children. Now many women hold titles that carry more prestige then their husbands, and those who still aspire to be housewives are often looked down upon. The positions have switched, and along with the value that other women place on their career, and others, has increased. I believe that a woman’s career is directly linked to her self esteem. I’d like to point out the career itself, not necessarily the income but the intrinsic value they recieve.
I believe that women are more critical of other women’s careers then men are too. This is especially true when it comes to women who are employed in non gender typical industries.
I have to disagree with the person who said there are three types of women. What about the woman who doesn’t want to be either a career woman or a mom? It’s time we stopped pigeonholing people into definitions based on careers or parenthood. There are other alternatives in life.
As for the subject of the article, when I talk to people, I ask them, “What do you do?” in order to find topics to keep the conversation flowing.
I can really only speak from my own experience here, but I feel that men and women are both a mixed bag when it comes to how they view others’ careers–and I think it really depends more on what you want out of life than your gender. For me, I don’t really identify with the statement that women care more about a guy’s ability to support a family. I don’t really want to have kids, but I would like to have a flexible lifestyle and be able to travel extensively. For long-term mate material, I tend to listen for guys who are interested in travel, have opportunities for travel built into their careers, or have jobs that can be done remotely. I also want someone who will be around to spend time with me–and who won’t always have to cancel our plans together for work. A high-earning job that requires a guy to stay in one place or be “on call” is a bit of a warning sign to me–although I’d be willing to give guys in these careers a chance if I feel chemistry.
I think how interesting somebody’s career is really depends on how interested they are in it. When I ask someone what they do, it’s sort of a short-hand question for “what are your interests, what do you spend all day doing, what are your ambitions, how do you see yourself, etc?” The answers people give usually act as a starting point for finding these things out about them. And the more interested they are in their jobs, the more interested I usually am in them–because they can tell me what’s cool about accounting or being a defense attorney or whatever.
I also think of myself as my job–but I didn’t always. When I worked in a bank I didn’t introduce myself as a bank teller, and when I worked as a teacher I didn’t really like to say I was a teacher. Those weren’t really my career goals, and I didn’t feel that people could learn anything about me by my answers. Now that I’m doing what I like, I feel that says a lot about me and I’m always willing to talk about it and be defined by it.
I try my best to not focus on what I do too extensively. It takes me a while to explain what I do to technical-minded people; explaining it to non-techies usually results in eye-glazing and blank stares. Usually I say just enough to let people know that I’m kind of a big deal.
Going the other way, I am geninuely interested in hearing what a woman does for a living since it usually drops some clues as to what her personality is like. Maybe not as much as what she does in her free time, but it’s a fairly good barometer I’d say.